Episode 2- What’s the Big Deal About Hypermobility?
Overview
In this episode, Andrew (The Shirtless Dude) Dettelbach, and Katie Goss dive deep into all things hypermobility, Ehlers Danlos syndrome (EDS), hEDS, and more!
Topics Covered
Here are the key topics of the episode in order
What is Hypermobility?
How many does it impact?
How to see if you have it
Isn't mobility good though?
Their personal stories of diagnosis and experience
Who is hypermobile and what do they look like?
Systemic impacts of hypermobility
Lessons learned from years of experience
More info on our upcoming hypermobility program
Show Notes & Links
What is FRC? Functional Range Conditioning®
Esophagogastroduodenoscopy (EGD) | Johns Hopkins Division of Gastroenterology and Hepatology
How to Test if You May Have Hypermobility or EDS- Whealth Blog Post
After Months Of A Racing Heart And Burning Feet, A COVID Long-Hauler Gets A Diagnosis
Award-Winning Medical Anatomy Painting for New Hypermobility Program
Episode Transcript
Episode 2- Hypermobility
[00:00:00] Andrew Dettelbach: Welcome to the Whealth podcast, everybody. This is Andrew Dettelbach
[00:00:03] Katie Goss: and this is Katie Goss.
[00:00:05] Andrew Dettelbach: And today we're going to be talking about hypermobility. So we just did the podcast. And I think what was profound from my perspective was all of the fancy terminology for one, uh, Katie goes in depth to some things that I'm like, I don't even know what this is.
So I asked her a few things to help you all. And then. Going into our stories with our mobility and kind of sharing the in-depth kind of chaos of it. And hypermobility doesn't just have to do with. The joints people look at me on my Instagram and in our videos and see me doing some crazy movements with my body.
And hypermobility goes much deeper than that. So if you are a trainer or a practitioner, this will also be really beneficial for you to learn about, but if you're just someone that's interested in hypermobility, then this is going to be a pretty impactful podcast. Yeah,
[00:00:55] Katie Goss: absolutely. Send it to someone who will be helped by your bendy Gumby [00:01:00] friend, who can do the splits or medical providers.
Um, most of them have very limited knowledge and they really need to improve it. So send them this episode.
[00:01:10] Andrew Dettelbach: Enjoy listening everybody.
Today we're going to be going over. What is the big deal with hypermobility?
That's all. I've got everybody Katie's going to be taking this one away pretty heavily, because she's actually the person that I like. Everything about hypermobility from what she's like? Nah, yes. I learned everything that I know about hypermobility from her. I didn't even know that I had it until I talked to her and she had me go to a doctor.
And we're also going to be talking about what hypermobility is because people are a little bit confused. People are thinking that hypermobility program means that we're going to give a program where they're going to be super duper mobile. That isn't what hypermobility program is. Uh it's actually, you talk
about it now.[00:02:00]
[00:02:00] Katie Goss: Yeah. I mean, that's not a bad name for a program that makes people very mobile, but in the context that we're referencing it, um, is just people that have more than an average range of motion in their. So, if you think about, I don't know, you can talk about, yeah, like shoulder joints it's or let's take the elbow.
For example, most people's elbows will extend to a certain amount and then stop in someone who's hyper mobile. Their elbow might extend farther, like, you know, more than 10 degrees or greater compared to like an average person. The other thing about hypermobility hypermobility is that it's not always, it's not always in every joint.
Sometimes it might be just in the peripheral joints, meaning maybe just your little joints, like your fingers, your toes. I don't know. Put my feet up there and show like little, little toes that bend backwards. Sometimes it is in a bunch of different joints. Um, sometimes it can be [00:03:00] caused by genetics.
Sometimes it can be caused by other conditions. And kids, for example, are typically hyper mobile. To varying extents. If you think about a baby and you know, they come out and they stay up in that little tucked up position and then babies, you know, they're just pretty, they're kind of like a little sack of bones for awhile.
They're preventing for awhile. And then as they grow a lot of times they'll outgrow some of that hypermobility, but in some individuals, they do not outgrow that hypermobility. So. If you think about, um, you know, maybe Cirque du Soleil, or I think everyone's seen like contortionists or, um, some ballet dancers, gymnast, you know, people doing, you know, not just splits, but like the what's it called when they go up
[00:03:47] Andrew Dettelbach: even right.
All those negative splits where they're dropping below the threshold of normalcy.
[00:03:51] Katie Goss: So those people aren't always hyper mobile. You can certainly train your body into those ranges of motion. If it doesn't come [00:04:00] naturally to you, but people who do have some natural hypermobility, a lot of times will gravitate toward things like yoga, gymnastics, ballet, because they're rewarded for being good at it.
Right. Uh, I,
[00:04:16] Andrew Dettelbach: I look at FRC because both of us have our FRC. Or whatever certification, one of them. And, um, I'm like the people that like to do FRC already have a pretty wide spectrum of movement. Like I enjoy it because I can get my joints into some pretty crazy positions. Uh, whereas Cameron, he's like, I'm over this, like, I'm not making many improvements.
We call him like hypo mobile, if you will. Cause he just doesn't have that much range of motion in his hips. Uh, and it's just, it doesn't improve that much and that's okay. That's, that's his anatomy and that's his genetics and that's totally normal for him. And I don't think we should try to be like other people.
Uh, another [00:05:00] thing about this podcast is we're going to be talking quite a bit about hypermobility over the coming episodes because we're launching a new hypermobility program. We need people to understand what the hell it is because. It's not very well talked about, and it is actually more common than you think.
So we're going to provide some information about what that is Katie's is going to be talking mostly about all of the stuff that she's learned. And I'm going to try to poke some holes in some things, cause I don't necessarily agree with everything that is said a little bit of like good cop, bad cop in a way.
Cause I'm more of like the push through dah, dah, dah, and um, there's some things that are there. They, they want to be a little bit softer with things and I think there is a little bit of a need to push a little
[00:05:46] Katie Goss: bit. So yeah. Yes. I also think it's worth pointing out that, um, the way it shows up in men and women can be different.
So it has um, so, okay. Let's go back a little bit. So hypermobility, [00:06:00] the reason that we have. A special interest in hypermobility is because both of us are hyper mobile. And we actually have both been diagnosed with something called hyper mobile Ehlers Danlos syndrome. Um, and we'll get into what that is actually.
Why don't we just go into that? So, so high probability falls on a spectrum, so you can be hyper mobile, like I said, in, you know, just certain joints or all over the place and you can be that way and not have any issues from it. You can be that way and not have, you know, chronic pain, not have, you know, a bunch of issues with your joints or other areas of your body.
That would be like one end of the spectrum. It used to be referred to as, um, like benign joint hypermobility syndrome or just benign joint hypermobility, generalized joint hypermobility. So on the other end of the spectrum is. Ehlers Danlos syndrome. And there are, I believe 13 different types of Ehlers Danlos syndrome.
[00:07:00] They know the genetic variants for all of them. So you can be diagnosed by blood test for all of them, except for the hyper mobile form, the hypermobile EDS. So that one is a diagnosis of exclusion, meaning that they have ruled out other possible reasons for your hypermobility and the symptoms accompanying it.
And if you meet all of the criteria and they've ruled out other forms of EDS and other things, then you will receive a diagnosis sometimes of hyper mobile EDS. So. Hypermobility is thought to impact about 20% of the population and hypermobile EDS. I've read different numbers somewhere between one and 2,501 in 5,000, but it is also very underdiagnosed and hyper hyper mobility and hypermobile EDS.
And the systemic impacts of it is something that is [00:08:00] not taught thoroughly in medical school. And it's something that a lot of medical providers have very limited knowledge about.
[00:08:07] Andrew Dettelbach: And I think it's underdiagnosed, I would think because people, doctors think of down those as the. Connective tissue disorder, where people literally dislocate limbs when they're like opening doors or just walking in their hip will shift out of position.
Their knee will dislocate, and those are extreme cases. And unfortunately the medical industry in and of itself is really built off of catering toward more extreme cases, uh, for everyone. And that's why everyone kind of gets treated in a way that's like, let's be careful because we never know who's going to be that extreme case.
So when people are like, when doctors here, oh yeah, Ehlers Danlos syndrome, like, you know, that doesn't make sense. You're obviously you're lifting hundreds of pounds. You're not dislocating things. And I'm like, well, you know, not now because I'm really fucking strong, [00:09:00] but, um, you know, they, they look at me and they're like, you don't fit that profile that I learned about in school.
You know, in that one chapter that I read in this one book. Yeah.
[00:09:10] Katie Goss: Yeah. And that chapter in that book usually, um, you know, there'd be some images in the medical texts and like Andrew said, it's going to be the most severe people. And it, you know, most likely they learned about Ehlers Danlos syndrome period, not the wide variation, all the different subtypes, which I think was re categorized in 2017.
Um, but they might've seen a picture of the person that can grab the skin on their neck and stretch it way out, which would be more along the lines of what classical EDS that has the really, really stretchy skin versus hypermobile EDS. It's usually more mild skin stretchiness. Um, yeah. So there is another interesting thing that I actually was reading about recently.
That's some research that was done that shows that there is a higher rate [00:10:00] of hypermobility among the neurodivergent popular. So
[00:10:04] Andrew Dettelbach: meaning what is neural divergent?
[00:10:06] Katie Goss: Katie? Yeah. So anyone who has ADHD, um, autism Tourette's, um, if sometimes her dyslexia in the category of neurodivergence, I don't know, technically that falls into that category, but it's really interesting to me.
And they actually did brain scans that showed that the amygdala. And
[00:10:32] Andrew Dettelbach: that's like your, your animal
[00:10:35] Katie Goss: bird hunger. It's like fear, like perceiving threat and fear. So it's the medulla plays a big role in like yeah. Yeah. Like fear, anxiety stuff. So rates of anxiety can also be higher among those who are hyper mobile.
And now they're starting to, to look [00:11:00] closer at, you know, more reasons for why that. Which
[00:11:03] Andrew Dettelbach: is kind of cool. Well, like I told you earlier, I don't have increased anxiety because my head is huge and my brain has more space people with London, large to make doulas. They don't have a lot of space.
That's science right there. People don't know. We also have this on YouTube and maybe Spotify. I don't know if we're eligible for that yet. So you can watch us talk to each other. I think so Shiloh said something it's like coming soon. I don't know what that means, but I think we might have to have a specific number of downloads before we can qualify
[00:11:40] Katie Goss: for that download.
So
[00:11:42] Andrew Dettelbach: download us in some way, show us that we're working on it. So what I just said could be complete bullshit.
[00:11:48] Katie Goss: Okay. All right. So how would you know if you're hyper
[00:11:53] Andrew Dettelbach: mobile? Um, I was one of those people that just played with [00:12:00] my joints, my finger joints, specifically, like I would put my thumb. I can't do it anymore.
Cause I've, as you get older, this stuff gets harder, but I would put my thumb behind my back of my hand, uh, like horizontally. So it would be going completely horizontally, no bend in the thumb. Um, I would also do some just crazy stuff with my toes, which I've still seen. I've posted that on social media, many times with me walking on my toes.
I have absolutely no stretch from that. Uh, my shoulders and my neck. Um, you know, I can do some crazy things with my neck and my shoulders. Uh, pretty much like this is just not a position that people can get into here. If you're watching the video, um, pulling the arm across, I don't feel any stretch when I'm in this position and my shoulder blades are scooped.
If you know what that means, we showed the scoop many times. Um, the scoop would make it even harder to get into that position. So my shoulder blade is not moving what I'm doing, that I found myself doing a lot of party tricks. [00:13:00] So I just explore my body from kid. So, you know, like you're still a kid, I'm still a kid, you know, from being kid up until adulthood, just figuring out all these weird things that I could do with my body and like show them off at school and stuff like that.
And no one else could really do those. I didn't really think anything of it until I met you. And you looked at me and you're like, you can do some crazy stuff. I think you should go get checked out for Mar fans and hypermobility in general. And I did, and I didn't have more fans, which are fans is I'll let you explain that.
Uh, but that's the one where people might have a random sporadic aorta rupture. Just think
[00:13:43] Katie Goss: there's just more cardiac and vascular involvement with our fans. But the only reason I had met Andrew, um, online before I met him in person, I just knew that he was like six foot five and just very tall and very [00:14:00] long arm wingspan.
So, um, all right, so maybe I'll go into my backyard. Yeah. So I didn't know that I was hyper mobile. Um, when I was born, I had something called like floppy baby syndrome. Um, My mom will describe it as like, I was just a sack of wet noodles. She would say, and I couldn't hold my head up for a long time. So anyone who's held a baby, you know, you have to support their head.
And then they start to learn to support their own head and hold it up. And I just didn't like, my head was just like very wobbly and I was just, you know, my arms and legs would kind of just flop out to the sides and stuff. And when they would put me on my stomach to kind of do tummy time, I just, I just went with my head up.
I would just get really pissed and carpet and. They took me to [00:15:00] specialists and you know, like neurologists and they did all the testing. They knew how to do at that time. And they couldn't come up with anything that was wrong with me. And they just told my mom to, um, take me home and love me is what they said, which my mom was like, my mom was a nurse and she's like, that's what you tell people when someone's dying.
Don't tell me that about my baby. So they worked with me a lot. I strengthened my neck and eventually held it up and eventually caught up on all my milestones and never really gave it any thought other than, you know, I would see photos or hear stories of that. And. Um, when I was growing up, I had a lot of back pain, a lot of SSI, joint pain, um, around the time that I started getting my period, um, things got worse.
I just felt very tired, a lot, um, all stuff though, that kind of just chalked it up to hormones and puberty, and it's just kind of, [00:16:00] you know, yeah. Your back hurts is probably just part of getting your period and, um, just, yeah, I had a lot of injuries over the years. Um, struggled with anxiety, um, had GI issues for a lot of my life.
Um, had multiple colonoscopies and EDS, um, never finding, you know, a cause really for it. And it wasn't until after I had my babies that, um, I kind of realized that, you know, maybe something else was going on. So I had something called pelvic organ prolapse. Um, I also had. Uh, very fast birth, um, with my second child, um, pretty fast with my first one, but didn't know at the time that that was a sign of anything, but that can be a sign of others, Danlos and hypermobility.
And when I was finally diagnosed with prolapse, um, I had, you know, multiple [00:17:00] prolapses, including, you know, my small intestines and pelvic organs. And I started reading literature and research about it and came across some articles, you know, referencing a connection with, uh, connective tissue disorders. I started reading about those start reading about Ehlers-Danlos.
A lot of things made sense and clicked, including the floppy baby thing. Um, and eventually saw a geneticist and an EDS specialist and was diagnosed and suddenly all of these random things that I had dealt with over my life made a lot of sense. And. It was, um, maybe six months to a year after that, when I met Andrew and saw how bendy he was and all of this was fresh in my mind.
And I was reading everything that I could get my hands on about hypermobile EDS. And so, yeah, I told you to mention it to your doctor and you did, and then you got diagnosed pretty quickly. [00:18:00] It didn't take. I
[00:18:01] Andrew Dettelbach: had some insurance through Kaiser at the time, they just sent me wherever. Yeah.
[00:18:05] Katie Goss: Kaiser, the, your primary sent you straight to genetics and you got a diagnosis.
And I know that for some people it can take, you know, decades to get a diagnosis or to find out what's going on. And even when they do suspect something, it can be really a struggle to find someone who is knowledgeable enough, um, about EDS and about the diagnostic criteria to actually make a diagnosis.
So
[00:18:27] Andrew Dettelbach: the hypermobility, the general tests for people that are like, well, I still don't know if that resonates with me. There is the Beighton scale, correct. Or score. Uh, so we did a little blog on that, on our, on our website of how to test yourself and the Beighton score. And it's, you know, testing a few joints for range of motion.
But when I got tested by the geneticists, he looked at. I don't think any of those things he used, um, my eyes as a sign, he used some of my skin areas. Um, [00:19:00] some places where I'd had some hernias pop-up, uh, my, the angles of my joints, my toes was actually one of them and my limb length compared to my body, my limbs are longer.
Like my wingspan and my legs are longer than my torso. Um, but like not a significant amount, but enough not, not a significant amount, like Marfan, but enough for it to qualify for. I have mobility. Um, yeah, I think those were used a lot of other things that it wasn't the normal Bayton.
[00:19:31] Katie Goss: Yeah. And I think that's part of, um, part of the challenge that some people have to, if they do bring it up with a provider who's not very knowledgeable, you know, sometimes they will look very strictly at the Beighton score, which.
Um, you know, I, I think is a pretty good test. It's fairly reliable and it's very low cost and can be done very easily. You don't need special equipment or tools really. Um, but when you see someone who [00:20:00] is more knowledgeable about EDS and hypermobility, a lot of times they'll look at a lot more of the bigger picture than just the Beighton score and the 2017 diagnostic criteria for EDS, which is what is used now for hypermobile EDS, um, does have multiple sections to it.
So the first section is the Beighton score. Um, and you have to have a certain score on that, but they did add in, you know, asking people, can you, or could you ever do these things? So for some people like, you know, placing your feet, um, close to each other and then bending over and putting your palms flat on the ground without bending your knees.
Um, you know, maybe they could do that when they were in their twenties, thirties, but you know, maybe now 50 sixties, they can't do that anymore. So they did change some of the wording with that. And also some of the scoring on the Beighton score, um, a lower score as an, uh, like 50 and older does qualify as a positive Beighton score.
[00:21:00] Um, and like for kids, it has to be a higher score because they're generally more hyper mobile anyway. Um, and yeah, some like when, when I met with the geneticist, they, you know, they're looking at ruling out other possible causes or forms of BDS. So they did look at a lot of different stuff. Like, I mean, they were looking inside my mouth and my ears and my eyes and like, you know, just asking me to do all kinds of stuff and, um, you know, measuring lots of different stuff on my body.
And, um, yeah, it was a pretty thorough exam and they did look at like my, so the baby. The Bayton test looks at the thumb, like being able to press your thumb to your forearm on both sides. Each side is worth a point. And then your pinky finger going back more than 90 degrees when your hand is flat on a table, there's one point for each side of that, and then bending over without bending your knees, placing both palms flat on the floor is a [00:22:00] point.
And then, um, whether your elbows hyperextend, and then whether your knees hyperextend, you get a point for each side on those. So this is the total possible nine points.
[00:22:10] Andrew Dettelbach: Yeah, I remember, um, my teeth were one that he was like, cause I've had about 20 cavities in my life and you know, I've had a cavity almost every time I've gone to the dentist, regardless of how clean eating was.
Although I haven't had a cavity in two years and our eating has been cleaner than ever. So I think, you know, people think don't eat so much sugar. Well, I didn't eat a lot of like sugar, but now I'm almost. Uh, KIDO most of the time where it's pretty much just fruits. Um, so that's not Quito, but is it taquito?
People eat fruit? I don't know, whatever I eat fruit and meat and just non-processed foods. And my teeth have been fine since then, but you know, the teeth can be very porous if you have, um, connective tissue disorders of varying degrees.
[00:22:59] Katie Goss: So [00:23:00] yeah. So the reason that there are very systemic and widespread impacts is because you have connected tissues everywhere in your body.
Um, you know, not only do they hold your joints together, and some medical providers who have some very limited knowledge of, you know, Ehlers-Danlos or hypermobility syndrome, um, my. I might say things like, oh yeah, I I've heard of that, but that's just has to do with your joints, which is not true. It, it has to do with all of your connective tissue in your body, which is everywhere.
So that's where the, the dental stuff comes into play. Um,
[00:23:38] Andrew Dettelbach: yeah.
[00:23:38] Katie Goss: GI GI issues, the nervous system, um, people can have, uh, issues with dysautonomia. So, so it's like kind of like a malfunctioning of the nervous system. So you have different parts to your nervous system. There is the sympathetic and [00:24:00] parasympathetic are kind of the two branches of your autonomic nervous system.
And sympathetic is, um, like you're
[00:24:11] Andrew Dettelbach: the opposite of what the name sounds. Yeah. It's
[00:24:13] Katie Goss: like, you're a fight or flight kind of nervous system. The parasympathetic is your rest and digest. So. Sympathetic is, you know, something scares you and you get that like, and then you get that, you know, kind of sweaty clammy heart rate goes up.
Um, you know, it's, it's like your body instantly prepares you to like fight a bear or lift a car off a kid or whatever. And then the parasympathetic nervous system is, that's kind of what you tap into. If you think about like when you're meditating or, you know, you get a massage and you just feel like really calm and relaxed, or you do some deep breathing that's, that's more of the person static system.
So what can occur with people who have connective tissue disorders is the dysautonomia is like the sympathetic and parasympathetic [00:25:00] nervous systems can come. Like overdo it, you know, like you might get your sympathetic nervous system might get triggered really easily and might overcompensate for something, something like, um, say going from sitting to standing, your nervous system helps your body, regulate your blood pressure and circulating in the blood.
When you go from sitting to standing, um, and in someone with dysautonomia, it can get a little out of whack and overdo it and then your heart rate can go up and then you can get dizzy. And that's, that would be like pots, postural, orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, which is recently getting a little bit, um, more, uh, eyes on it.
I guess. I've, I've read about it a lot more, more recently because people with lung COVID are, um, getting pots now. And so this seems to be becoming more prevalent and more talked about.
[00:25:54] Andrew Dettelbach: I just, I want to say something. So you've said dysautonomia and a bunch of other terms. [00:26:00] Many times over the last few months, and I've never like, actually understood what they were.
So I think I want to point out to people that like, knowing this stuff, like don't, don't get too caught up on. Yeah. Don't get inundated by all of these fancy terms. Like it isn't necessary for you to know, but ultimately it can help you just understand why things are the way they are for you. Um, for me, I, I I've found a great way to deal with, I I've never been diagnosed with pots.
Um, I've obviously stood up and been dizzy my entire life. Um, but we mitigate that with, uh, electrical light packets water. We put salt and, uh, other potassium. What else is in there? Sodium magnesium in the water, um, to help thicken the blood and just improve the viscosity of the blood so that you don't get that huge, uh, change.
What would that blood blood [00:27:00] pressure. So ultimately, you know, I don't know these things, and I know that I feel great without knowing like some of the specific details, these things, I just want to say to people that
[00:27:09] Katie Goss: yeah, and you don't need to stress about necessarily understanding all of the why's of all of this stuff.
Um, you know, my background is in nursing, so it's interesting to me and I really enjoy reading about it. And I really enjoy understanding it on a little bit deeper level, but don't feel like you need
[00:27:31] Andrew Dettelbach: to, she re she learns about everything. If there's something of interest to her, she it's, it's going hard, which is great.
Cause I don't
[00:27:37] Katie Goss: do that either don't care at all, or I am absolutely obsessed with
[00:27:43] Andrew Dettelbach: offset each other. Well, because I'm like less of the, I want to understand every single detail. Uh, so we can like kind of just support each other. She's like, you need to learn more about this and then I'm like, you need to chill out.
So it's when
[00:27:56] Katie Goss: it comes to electronics, he's like all [00:28:00] about it researching it
[00:28:01] Andrew Dettelbach: too much.
[00:28:04] Katie Goss: Um, so all right, so it can affect every system in the body. So, uh, we talked a little bit about the nervous system, um, GI system. It can result in things like prolapse, which I mentioned gastrointestinal. So when you put things in your mouth, everything between your mouth and where they come out is your gastrointestinal
[00:28:28] Andrew Dettelbach: system, where do they come out?
Everybody fed at
[00:28:30] Katie Goss: once. Um, let's see. So. Uh, so I wanna back up for just a second. So it is important to understand that with like the pots that we just talked about, that's a syndrome, right? Postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, Ehlers Danlos is Ehlers Danlos syndrome. It's abbreviated, it's called EDS or H EDS, um, for hypermobile.
Yes. So the thing was syndromes is that a syndrome is really [00:29:00] just, uh, a collection of a bunch of symptoms and things that are going on. And so just because you have something that is one of those symptoms does not mean that you have that. And just because you have that syndrome doesn't mean that you have all of those things, that can be a part of it.
So just because, you know, maybe you have pots doesn't mean that you have EDS and just because you're hypermobile doesn't mean that you have EDS, uh, just because you have pelvic organ prolapse does not mean that you have EDS, it's looking at things kind of zooming out and looking at all of these things and looking for patterns and trends and, um, you know, just getting a really big overall clinical picture.
And that's also where, you know, when you are, if, if you are being diagnosed by say like a geneticist who is very familiar with EDS, um, and they have [00:30:00] a lot of experience, sometimes they will maybe look outside of the diagnostic criteria a little bit. So where that Beighton scale looks at very specific joints, they may ask you about other areas.
Um, For me, my neck, upper cervical is very hypermobile. It's probably the most hyper mobile area of my body. Um, my shoulders are also very hyper mobile. They, I can very easily sublux them so that you can see the it's called the sulcus line, um, which is where, you know, when the joint kind of slides out of position and it sort of sucks the skin in a little bit.
So when I was seeing, you know, they were looking at these other things and weighing that into the diagnosis as well, even though it wasn't specifically, you know, listed on the criteria. Um, so looking at cardiac system, um, a lot of times there can be low blood pressure, um, for multiple reasons. But, um, one is just [00:31:00] that the connective tissues in the blood vessels can be a little bit stretchier as well.
Um, mast mass cell activation syndrome would be. Another syndrome that, uh, is related to your immune system. So if you think of allergies or, um, you know, inflammatory responses, like say you get stung by a bee and you know, it kind of gets swollen and
[00:31:26] Andrew Dettelbach: swollen like that. I know. So Paula and lands on my skin, I break out and all stuff.
[00:31:32] Katie Goss: So yeah. So having, you know, really like allergic type skin reactions, um, asthma type stuff, um, can be, can be part of that. And again, with that syndrome, just because you have those things doesn't necessarily mean that you have the syndrome, um, and you also have mast cells in your, in your gut and your intestines.
So there can be, you know, GI involvement with that.
[00:31:56] Andrew Dettelbach: Um, For you you're, [00:32:00] you can't handle corn very well. Um, gluten, I think,
[00:32:05] Katie Goss: and I don't have celiac. Like I, I'm not allergic to gluten. You can
[00:32:10] Andrew Dettelbach: see the spider crawling on the camera. I look at that. I'm going to have to get rid of that spider, everyone. So you can keep talking.
I'm going to go.
[00:32:21] Katie Goss: Sorry.
Um, so looking at the GI system, um, slow GI motility can be an issue for some people that can result in, you know, abdominal pain, constipation. Um, it can, uh, result of nausea. Uh, some people can have issues, you know, again, it's a spectrum. So some people can have issues to the point where they may end up needing, you know, a feeding tube or an Austin.
Um, which, and ostomies like, uh, uh, they actually make [00:33:00] an incision and, um, you know, can attach a bag to your body that your stool would go into, um, so that you can bypass, uh, part of the colon. Um, so again, it's a range, right? It could be like some mild GI issues. It could be some pretty severe, you know, IBS issues or it could be very extreme.
Um, let's see. Yeah. Um, also with the reproductive system faster, faster labors and deliveries can occur. So these are by no means comprehensive, but just to give you an idea of how widespread and how systemic of an impact. Um, people can have from
[00:33:49] Andrew Dettelbach: hypermobile. So that makes us go back to one thing you've written on there is isn't mobility.
Good. And yes, having, having mobility can be very helpful. But when [00:34:00] we're looking at the premise of, of hypermobility, we're talking about how it kind of affects everything. Uh, one of the bigger things that people tend to focus on with hypermobility is the pain that's associated with the persistent pain that people have.
Uh, as a result of being hyper mobile, I've had persistent pain since I was very young, uh, eight or so years old. And that has I've, I've had some sort of pain. In my body at some point in my life. Um, always, and it has decreased significantly since I've learned so much about, about movement. Katie's blew up the table since I've learned so much about movement and how to move well and efficiently for me.
And then teaching that to so many other people and seeing how effective that is for people that aren't just hyper mobile, but also, you know, you're tight people like Cameron, for instance, he wants, he went through my program. He's the opposite of us in terms of hypermobility. And here's the other thing.
Yes. [00:35:00] I'm going to talk about Cameron here. So he doesn't have as much mobility and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. People that don't have a lot of mobility actually don't have nearly as much pain as people who have too much mobility or too much flexibility we can call it cause mobility, the term mobility means having control in your range of motion, having strength and control in your range of motion.
So when it comes to hypermobility, those people are often hyperflexible their tissues and their ligaments, their muscles, everything just stretches way too much. And that's where things can kind of dislocate or sublux. Um, whereas the opposite end of the spectrum, Cameron, for instance, his tissues are very, they're tighter.
So. Those individuals. I often see, this is just anecdotal. I often see those people are the ones that are able to lift a lot heavier weights. They can produce a lot more force. And the reason being is that their joints, aren't just going [00:36:00] to go all over the place. When they're moving. When I squat heavy and I'm doing my maximum lifts, uh, my hips will start to just shift.
My knees will shift my ankles and move around. It's a lot harder for me to maintain my positioning when I'm under my heaviest load versus a submaximal load. Whereas you can see your super lifters going and picking up heavy, heavy heavyweight and looking very similarly to their submaximal loads.
[00:36:28] Katie Goss: Yeah, you can think about it.
Thinking about it. Like if you're hyper mobile, your joints just have a lot more options about where to go and how far to go versus someone who's not hyper mobile, you know, your joints going to have just less options. So there's a lot more to control for someone who's hyper
[00:36:47] Andrew Dettelbach: mobile. And that's what, that's what our current program limitless does teaches people how to control the range of motion, ranges of motion and improve their overall proprioception throughout their body.
[00:37:00] Proprioception is your ability to determine where your limbs are in the space around you without seeing them. Um, you can just feel where your body is in the space around you. A hypermobility program is going to dive much deeper into that. I'm starting with a lot of kind of isometric movements and working.
From there. So it's going to be a bit more gentle at first, and then it's going to progress, you know, to, to the end where you're going to be doing, you know, some squatting and some hinges and pushups, for instance, and all of those are modified how they should be, depending on where the person's at. We've got some people that come into our programs that have never worked out before.
And some people that are professional athletes and it works for both ends of the spectrum.
[00:37:48] Katie Goss: Yes. Uh, yeah. Proprioception is also something that people who are hyper mobile are notoriously not that great at. Um, it can be a lot more challenging for them and [00:38:00] it's something that, you know, everyone benefits from improving, just improving, being able to tell what your body's doing and where your body's at in space.
So if you think about, you know, if you've ever learned to say deadlift or I don't do a new exercise. Being able to understand where your body is and what it's doing is really important. If someone tries to teach you even pelvic tilt and how to, you know, talk, you know, tuck your tail under, they'll say in like Pilates or yoga, are you going to show it?
Yeah. So tucking under, so that can be a challenge, like a real challenge for some people to be able to do that. And especially to do that in isolated, only to the pelvis and to not involve, you know, the rib cage and the whole body and to creating those tilts. So that's the kind of stuff that we've work on and it can be really helpful to do that in front of a mirror or to set up a camera and record yourself because, uh, what can occur a lot of times is you think that your body, like you watch someone else do it.
And you're [00:39:00] like, oh yeah, I'm going to do that. And then you do it, but it looks nothing like what it's supposed to look like, even though you feel like you're doing it right. And then you, you see yourself and you're like, oh wow. And suddenly you can connect to your body better. I couldn't
[00:39:13] Andrew Dettelbach: get them earlier.
He's in a good spot to be gotten.
[00:39:20] Katie Goss: Do we need to put a violence, uh, warning on this podcast? All right, so isn't mobility. Good. Is mobility good? Yes is too, you know, too much of a good thing is never good, right? Like everything is great in moderation. So, um, with hypermobility, you have a, a large range of motion in the joints and working to gain strength and control and awareness throughout that entire range can be incredibly impactful for people in terms of reducing pain, reducing injuries, and really maximizing the way that you [00:40:00] feel and feeling.
[00:40:01] Andrew Dettelbach: Which one are we working on now? I got stuck over the spider. Sorry.
[00:40:06] Katie Goss: I mean, kinda just jumping around. We kind of told our stories with a hypermobility in EDS a bit, uh, for me it was, it was pretty impactful meeting you and seeing, I know
seeing, seeing you be as hypermobile as you are, and having gone through, you know, significant prolapse, six hour pelvic reconstructive surgery, you know, working really hard to get back to just the baseline of, you know, level of fitness that I was at before the surgery learning all about EDS, got into some support groups, which I think that there are pros and cons and they can be helpful in some aspects.
But what I saw across the board was a lot of negativity. Um, and I saw a lot of. [00:41:00] A lot of complaining, um, competition, almost competition of like who was worse off and not a lot of solution based conversations. And so what occurred for me is I got more anxious or depressed. Um, and you know, I was seeking alternatives and solutions and ways to really get as strong as I could.
And, um, to do everything that I could, that was in my control to optimize the way that I felt. And when I came across Andrew and I saw how hypermobile he was, and then when he got diagnosed and I realized, you know, and, and his reaction to it was very, huh. Well, that's interesting. I'm going to go keep doing what I'm doing.
[00:41:45] Andrew Dettelbach: It was more like, good. I'm excited. Like for me, I like to kind of, I'm like, great. You've just labeled me with a syndrome. I'm going to go kick its ass some more. I've already been kicking its ass. [00:42:00] Um, you know, there's, there's a lot of people that are get labeled with their diagnosis, whether it be EDS or even just a disc injury.
Um, you know, that's one that we work with a lot with people that have severe disc injuries or, um, I mean, anything under the sun, whenever you get labeled with something, people tend to catastrophize about it, beat themselves up over it, um, become depressed. And ultimately it's not Trinity to learn and grow every single time.
Whenever there's a pitfall in your life, it's an opportunity to learn and grow because this right here, your brain is ultimately the thing that's going to control, how you're going to perceive this situation. And you have power over your brain so that you can. Improve the situation that you're in, regardless of your ailment or diagnosis that you were just given.
So when I was told that EDS, I'm like, cool. That makes a lot of sense for things that I've experienced in my life. I'm going to go improve those things. Some more. It gave me some clarity, uh, [00:43:00] rather than fear. And I went and I PR in my deadlift an hour after he told me that I had EDS, I was like, oh, he told me not to lift ever again.
He told me to only do yoga and that lifting weights was dangerous. So I went and did a 455 pound deadlift. That's my all-time PR I haven't gone there since, cause I don't have an interest to go heavier than that. And um, I did it really well and there was some sort of like an, uh, like a motivation that I had gotten from that meeting that was like, I need to prove this guy wrong.
And I did it and I felt great afterward and I continued to feel great with. When I don't lift, I don't feel great.
[00:43:40] Katie Goss: Yeah. I think that's a, that is one thing that, um, I think is a big driver for ultimately why we felt really passionate about creating a program for hypermobility and for people who are struggling with these things.
Um, there is, I think well-intentioned in advice that is given out, uh, I think by medical [00:44:00] providers who really don't have a great understanding of, you know, biomechanics and movement and, you know, the musculoskeletal system in that way. Um, and I was given similar advice in terms of like, be very careful. I wouldn't do Olympic lifting.
I wouldn't lift, you know, more than certain number of pounds. Like, and to me it made no sense whatsoever given what I had experienced, which, you know, I got into lifting, um, right after high school. And what I realized is that I felt so much better, the pain that I had, you know, Drastically less when I was strength training.
And if I went more than two days without lifting, and this is still true, um, you know, I start to ache and just, you know, joints start to hurt. And if I go more than three days, like the longer I go, the more pain that I experienced and I just feel myself kind of just going down hill pretty quickly. Um, and so I'm actually, you [00:45:00] know, grateful for that.
I know that might sound a little bit crazy, but if it weren't for that, uh, it would be a lot harder for me to find motivation and find the urge to be consistent. I think with exercise, you know, I'll hear some people say, aren't you so good? Like you exercise so much. I wish I could be like that. And you know, it's like, yes, but I have a pretty big motivator.
For me to do that, you know, pain is a pretty good catalyst and motivator. I don't like to feel it. And you know, if I know that if I go and lift weights or do some type of whether it's Pilates or bar or lifting or whatever it is, I know I'm going to feel better. And so it's, you know, makes it a pretty easy decision.
[00:45:44] Andrew Dettelbach: So earlier I mentioned that I often have some sort of a pain that I'm experiencing and I do not let that stop me from doing anything that I want to do in my life. Um, I don't even necessarily need to modify [00:46:00] things. Uh, it ultimately, when you have EDS, you're likely going to experience pain. Now how we interpret that pain is how it's going to affect us.
As I mentioned earlier, pain is just a signal. It's something that's trying to tell you something. And ultimately, um, you know, you can learn. To improve your movement patterns and to be able to lift an exercise again. So if we have people listening to this podcast right now that haven't exercised in a long time, because you're fearful, you're not entirely sure what's going to hurt you and what's going to feel good.
Um, that's what we're intending to provide. And it's obviously, you know, I look fit and I do a lot of heavy lifting and that's, isn't going to be what you're going to see in our programs, because that's not how I overcame my extreme injuries. I had to start from the ground and work my way up, you know, unweighted movements, learning the pelvic tilts, [00:47:00] um, exploring movements in my body.
And also your mind, your mind plays just a tremendous role in how you experienced. And if you're constantly treating the pain, like it's an affliction. If you're treating the EDS, like it's an affliction, then it will continue to be that way. If you start to invite the pain and start to almost hang out with the pain and think about just learning from and teaching each other, what makes you feel good?
Then you're going to see drastic changes. And I've watched this so much over the years. I've been running online communities for, for pain recovery, for those since 2016. And. When we work with those people and we have them change how they talk about their pain, how they think about their pain, how they're talking to their loved ones about paying their friends, family, uh, all the people around them.[00:48:00]
Then we have them shift it to a more positive mindset, a more positive outlook. Then people make huge improvements in a very short period of time and I've watched it time and again, um, and you have to be open-minded to that process because people expect movement to be the key to their joint pain. And it's a piece of the puzzle.
It's not the only piece of the puzzle. You can't just, you can't make a puzzle with one piece. You have to look at the whole board. So we look at everything from your movements, your mindset, your nutrition, your lifestyle, the people that you're around. Are you associating with a bunch of negative people, people that are unhealthy.
If you're around those people, you're going to continue to have, you know, unhealthy practices and a variety of other things, including just your word usage and how you are thinking. We look at all of those things and that is what improves pain, not just one thing.
[00:48:56] Katie Goss: Yeah. And I think it's worth noting that, um, you know, a lot [00:49:00] of people who are hyper mobile who are, have been diagnosed with EDS or who might think they have EDS have probably tried.
To strengthen or have probably tried to do exercise like they have at some point probably read or been told that it's good for them and they've tried it. And a lot of times what happens to ended up getting injured. Um, the certainly happened to me many, many times. It was like every time I would try to go do a, you know, a group fitness class or a exercise DVD, I'm dating myself right now.
Uh, or like, I didn't say I didn't say VHS. Okay. That's good. Um, or like a P90X, if any of you remember that whole thing? Like, I remember trying that and putting it in and doing it consistently for like a week before I heard something. And that can be very common occurrence. A lot of times, you know, it's, well-intentioned people try it and then they get frustrated and they kind of shut down.
Like I've tried to do that and I just get hurt every time and it can get really frustrating. So what's important to note about that is it [00:50:00] comes down to the details and the fine tuning, the mechanics and the biomechanics and the alignment when you're doing the exercises, which is something that we have always taken a really huge, like we've always put a very big emphasis on that.
And you know, some people in the movement world will say, you know, it doesn't matter how you move. It just matters that you move. And although I, I definitely appreciate where they're coming from. And, uh, I know that that is well-intentioned and applies to a lot of people. I do not believe that that applies to people who are hyper mobile.
I do think that you do have to pay more attention to your positions and controlling your range of motion. Uh, especially when you're newer to doing the exercises and strengthening, as you learn your body more, as your proprioception improves, as your strength improves, as your control improves, you can start to explore more [00:51:00] and, you know, get into more of your range of motion and try more dynamic movements.
Um, but that's not where you start when you don't have that base level of knowledge and ability.
[00:51:12] Andrew Dettelbach: Yeah. And the P for an instance, people demonize picking something up with a rounded back something heavy. Um, and other people say that, you know, you shouldn't focus on just lifting with a flat back for instance, which there is no such thing as a flat back when you're lifting.
But, uh, we believe that you should learn how to do both to some extent. So, you know, just teaching people how to use all of their. Body's capacity for movements and improve your control and your awareness, first of all, and then applying strength on top of that, once you've learned that control and awareness, we're, we're the fan of, of both ends of the spectrum.
At least I am, I don't know about you.
[00:51:58] Katie Goss: Yeah. I [00:52:00] also think one of the things that we, I don't want to say butt heads on, but that we like have discussions about is that Andrew has much more of a, I'm just not going to let this women at me in any way mentality. Like I would call it more of a, I don't know, masculine kind of, you know, I'm just going to be the boss of this thing and I'm not going to let it control me.
And I can be that way to an extent. And I also do tend to end up having, I would say more frustration with, you know, a bit more. Pain and injuries and issues as a result of hypermobility. And that is not uncommon. So the way that, um, that, uh, hypermobility is inherited or EDS is inherited is like autosomal dominant.
So it should show up equally between males and females. [00:53:00] Don't worry about it. It just, it should show up equally between males and females, but clinically, um, it's shown like more females show up and are diagnosed with it and have more issues from it. And typically will experience, you know, kind of more pain and difficulty, and they are starting to look into, you know, why that is.
And it seems that there is some type of connection with hormones. Uh, you know, it's not uncommon for women to have worse symptoms at certain parts of their cycle. And it's not really clear whether like testosterone offers. Protection or whether it's just that males have more muscle mass or, you know, I don't know.
I don't know that it's understood yet why, um, but it's not uncommon for it to be that way. So sometimes, you know, Andrew has more of a, I dunno, more of that masculine. Like just don't let it, don't let it bother. You kind of have a [00:54:00] mindset and some days, some days it can be hard for me some days I'm like I'm struggling today.
It's really hard. And also I acknowledged that there is a ton of stuff that is always in my control that I can always be doing to optimize the way that I feel. And anytime that I end struggling, there's always stuff that can be done to help me feel better. And that's all the stuff that we put in the program.
[00:54:24] Andrew Dettelbach: Yeah. I think for, for me, I've experienced so many pains in my life and I've also experienced how those pains will inevitably go. And so at this point, I've learned that for me and just all, a lot of people in our community that I've seen, the pains will dissipate when it comes to the chronic, the persistent ones, the ones that have been around for years.
Those can take a bit of time because you're having to, re-educate your nervous system, your mind, and your body all at once, when it comes to those sudden pains that people experience, [00:55:00] um, when approached appropriately, they can, you can reduce the length of that injury, um, drastically just learning how to manage it from, you know, the initial rest period to gentle movements, to progressively loading that, that thing in some way, um, that can heal the issue much faster, um, when it comes to just kind of that, that pushing through, it's not necessarily.
Hey, I'm going to say, for instance, my elbow is killing me. It's not that I'm going to go do a bunch of pull-ups it's that I'm going to do a bunch of other things with my body and not let this issue stop me. And if it's multiple areas, I'm going to find a way to do exercise and I will not let it stop me.
It's I mean, I've had some severe injuries to where I can't even lift my shoulders cause they're so impinged and I would go and still do. I'd find a way to do squats with [00:56:00] being unable to lift my arms. Like I would just do it. I'm like I'm working my legs today then.
[00:56:06] Katie Goss: Yeah. And, uh, that's another thing with hypermobility.
Yes, too, is that, um, injuries can just take longer to heal. So something, you know, some tendonitis or bursitis or, you know, a little labral tear or something might heal much faster than someone who's not hypermobile. So, you know, just understanding that and not having a specific timeline in your head can be really helpful.
Um, cause I'm definitely guilty of like, we'll spend six weeks. I should be feeling better. Now I
[00:56:35] Andrew Dettelbach: say six weeks, the doctors always say six weeks. Well, it might be six months. And that's just the reality of it. And that's kind of the thing that I've come to is that like I might be experiencing some pain somewhere for quite a while and that's just how it is.
And I, I don't put much emphasis on it. The more thought you put into it, the more you let it run. Yeah, that's definitely true. That's my experience like [00:57:00]
[00:57:00] Katie Goss: gardening, like whatever you tend to grows the most. So the more energy and thought and everything that you put into it, the more it's going to grow and just kind of consume you.
So if you are not hyper mobile, do not have EDS or don't think that you do, and you're still listening. Congratulations. And also, uh, if that is you and you're listening because you, maybe you're a trainer and you have, you know, you're concerned about your clients, maybe you're a chiropractor or a physical therapist, kudos to you for sticking around and learning.
Thank you. Um, on behalf of all of your hyper mobile clients and patients, when you begin working with someone. If you notice like, wow, they just, they could just bend over and touch your toes, like nothing, or wow. They have like quite the range of motion, party tricks, or they're doing party tricks or whatever, or, you know, you start to do like a warmup and some dynamic stretching.
And you're like, wow, like the range of motion is [00:58:00] crazy. You know, just take note of that and start to observe things and look at, you know, maybe just taking an easier modification and building more gradually with those people versus just kind of throwing them into the same thing that you do with everyone, because you know, the goal really is yes, help them get stronger.
Absolutely. But do so in a way that they can avoid getting injured because an injury is going to set them back longer than someone with normal tissues. Um, and a lot of them have been injured before, so you need to build some trust with them and. You know, if you just are able to say that you understand hypermobility, or even if you just, you know, what hypermobile EDS is, you're going to have some baseline level of trust with that person because just finding people, professionals who have any knowledge of it can be really challenging.
[00:58:56] Andrew Dettelbach: Yeah, that's great. And, uh, as far as [00:59:00] our programs go, like our hypermobility program is really anyone could go through it in terms of the movement portion. Like if you're really looking to, you know, just gain even range of motion in your fingers and your toes and stuff like that, we go through every joint in the body and work on improving the control and the strength and the range of motion through all of those tissues and then teach people how to apply that to, uh, bigger movements.
So, you know, you're going to benefit there. Um, if you're not of the hypermobile. Community. And you're like, I don't, I don't need all of that. Then the limitless program is something that you'll definitely benefit from it's bit faster paced. Um, and it'll get to the, just some more challenging things much more quickly.
So which can be that can help people kind of stick with it. Whereas with the hypermobility program, we're providing you with some gradual increases to help you improve your confidence in your, in your [01:00:00] movements and still be able to build strength.
[01:00:03] Katie Goss: Yeah. And if you are a physical therapist and you are interested in how to help hobo hobo, Michael hyper mobile clients, um, you know, the program would be a great fit for you.
There are, uh, limited resources out there, and I know it's not something that's covered in physical therapy education, typically, um, the resources that are available out there, we've looked at some of them and it was a little bit.
[01:00:32] Andrew Dettelbach: Can I say the one without seeing the book? Yeah. Yeah. This one book shows a staircase and it shows three images and it shows a staircase with two rails, one rail and no rails.
And the, the proper way to walk downstairs is to either hold both rails, hold one rail or hold no rails. That was the extent of the education as far as [01:01:00] how to walk downstairs with hyper-local.
[01:01:02] Katie Goss: So the program that we made is going to be great for people. Uh, we also have, uh, an award-winning biomedical illustrator who does
[01:01:13] Andrew Dettelbach: literally people say award winning the,
[01:01:15] Katie Goss: she she's won a bunch of international awards just in this last year.
Um, she has been doing biomedical illustration for decades. Um, I think before either one of us was alive and she, her art is extremely active. And we've had her paint, the body areas, um, for almost every video. So some areas of the body, we can't paint because of clothing and stuff. Um, but almost every video in the hypermobility program does have the area of the body painted.
And that can be very helpful for people who are new to exercise and movement, or who are difficult, or having difficulty connecting to those areas of your body. Seeing the muscle that you should be feeling can really help with that mind [01:02:00] body connection as well. Yep. And we
[01:02:01] Andrew Dettelbach: also have multiple people in the videos.
So, uh, either me or Katie is teaching the videos and we also have someone else, whether it be Katie or Shiloh or Ariel and Ariel hadn't done any of the movements. So being able to actually teach her on video and show kind of some of the faults that people create and then correcting that. So it's not just me doing these, like, you know, really good movements that I've been practicing for.
10 12 years now. Um, but you're actually seeing someone else kind of struggle through it. So you get to see me do them and you get to see someone else do them, and that is beneficial for your learning. Okay.
[01:02:44] Katie Goss: So why else are we making this program aside from the fact that, you know, we both have this thing, this hypermobile EDS, you know, we've struggled with it.
Um, I wouldn't say that we struggle with it anymore. I mean, [01:03:00] it's just kinda part of us, like it ebbs and flows like everything else. Um, aside from that, I think looking back at a lot of the resources that were available when I was first diagnosed and, you know, even the resources that are available now, I think a lot more is becoming available, which is great.
It's something that is being talked about more, which is incredible. And also it is, I think still. A pretty negative, uh, negative space. I don't see a lot of optimism. I don't see a lot of empowerment. I don't see a lot of ownership
[01:03:41] Andrew Dettelbach: and for lack of a term that absolutely pisses me off. Yeah.
[01:03:44] Katie Goss: Yeah. I think both of us get, um, I think both of us get very frustrated.
I think I have a little bit more appreciation for like, at least there's resources available, at least it's being talked about. That's great. Um, but [01:04:00] I think that it is desperately lacking resources like ours and stories like ours. I don't want to give off the idea that you know, that we don't struggle.
Like I've heard people say, oh, you're too healthy to have ideas. Or like you, you just seem too, you know, strong or too, like you're doing too well, like. Which is crazy to me because if I did not work so hard at it, and granted, this is our job, our career, like we have positioned ourselves intentionally in a way that we are able to prioritize our health every single day.
But if we weren't making those choices and those decisions every single day, like a million little decisions about what I put in my body, how it moved my body, whether or not I get up out of bed when I'm tired, um, I would not be functioning at the level that I am. I have no doubt about that. [01:05:00] And some of the issues that I've had between prolapse and the GI issues, um, and some stuff with my neck have, have been extremely challenging and have had a profound impact on my life, um, and have, have really, really tested my resiliency and, uh, I want there to be more positive stories like ours being shared.
I want more people to hear that. And I want more people who are diagnosed to see that, you know, it's not all doom and gloom and you're not just destined for a life of pain. When I was reading about EDS, everything I kept reading over and over, it was talking about how, you know, these people have chronic pain forever.
What was the quote the other day? I mean, this is the kind of shit that I'm reading. That just absolutely infuriates me.
[01:05:59] Andrew Dettelbach: I'm trying to find [01:06:00] it.
[01:06:02] Katie Goss: I know I sent it to the team. Say something while I look well what's what do you think about all that?
[01:06:11] Andrew Dettelbach: Um, well, I have experienced. So my eyes continually elongate.
So I'm actually wearing contacts and I'm finding that I'm having to blink a lot, cause there's a lot of lights and a lot of air hitting my eyes. Uh, but so my eyes are continually long getting and I'm having to make sure that my, my retina won't eventually detach. Um, so I get that checked out often and my teeth are obviously very porous and I've dealt with a lot of dental issues.
My, my skin is incredibly reactive to a lot of things. Like we don't use sense of any kind in our household. Um, when it comes to the GI stuff, mine has started to act up since I've hit about 29 years old and 31 now. So I've had like two years of just [01:07:00] like experiencing quite a few more things that are being coming reactive in my body.
And I'm almost transitioning to a carnivore diet at this point, cause it's been the most. Uh, you know, something that doesn't interact with my body, because most vegetables actually just destroy me on top of, um, you know, like gluten and other grains, the joint issues I've been there, my whole life. So for me, that's, um, that's the number one thing that I've had a lot of practice with and that I've had a lot of practice teaching other people how to deal with.
So the newest part of my journey is more so the GI stuff, um, there was something else. Oh, I have Raynaud's we both have Raynaud's we, we love that. That's a fun one.
[01:07:46] Katie Goss: I keep a heating pad plugged in next to the bed. Cause my feet, my toes are cold a lot. Especially at night for some reason. So that's fun. And I'm
[01:07:57] Andrew Dettelbach: only sharing this stuff because you did.
[01:08:00] And like, I, I'm not going to go around talking about here's all my issues. I don't do that because I don't, I'm not looking for like pity or
[01:08:10] Katie Goss: no, it's not that I just don't want people to look at us and think that we're just lucky or like we just don't have it so bad or we're just really fortunate. Um, yes, genetics play a role.
Absolutely. Um, but the
[01:08:25] Andrew Dettelbach: way
[01:08:28] Katie Goss: I'm sure that there are people who are doing everything that they possibly can and are still worse off. But I also see a lot of people who aren't doing everything they can, whether they just don't have the resources or the knowledge to know what they can do and what is in their control or whether, you know, they don't have the confidence to do it or the energy to do it, or whatever the thing is.
I just want people to understand that. We didn't get here and didn't get to the level of health and function that we are at. Um, by just being lucky, like [01:09:00] it took a lot of fucking hard work, like a lot of work, a lot of tears, a lot of working through pain, a lot of working on our mindset, a lot of challenging each other and challenging ourselves and just fighting for what we, what we need.
Just a lot of resilience. Yeah. Lot
[01:09:19] Andrew Dettelbach: of patients open-mindedness, uh, persistence and consistency. Consistency is, is number one because motivation for me, people are like, oh, you must be so motivated to workout. No, I'm never motivated to work out. I'm not motivated to not eat a cheeseburger. I want to eat cheeseburgers every day.
Um, It's it's about the consistency. I know in the long run, the doing this thing that I don't want to do now is only going to make me a happier human being done the line. And after I eat well, and after I exercise and meditate and go to sleep earlier, I, it makes me happier. [01:10:00] Uh, if I get stuck playing a video game, looking at social media, drinking a bunch, uh, eating a bunch of crappy food, not exercising the whole weekend.
Like all of those things make me feel more unhappy. They might, you might feel awesome at the time. Wow. I'm drinking, not working out, playing video games, doing all of these things at once. And, um, that might feel good in the short term, but in the longterm, it's not aiding you to a happiest successful
[01:10:28] Katie Goss: and it requires going through discomfort.
For sure, because I'll, I'll hear people, you know, say things like, well, I deserve to do that on the weekend. I. To go out and live my life and, you know, go to the brewery and drink with my friends and celebrate things. And yes, you do like that is fair. Right? Everyone should be able to do that. I should be able to do that.
However, I also understand and recognize that I will pay the price. On Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, I will have more pain. I will have more GI issues. I'll have more [01:11:00] skin issues. So making those decisions, like every decision that you make, you can make it however you want. But is it helping you achieve your long-term goals or is it taking you farther away from your long-term goals?
Like get out of this quick gratis, like you want instant gratification. You want Amazon prime, same day delivery. You want Uber eats, you want Netflix streaming, immediately pain relief medication. Like you want someone to fix it? You want something immediately to fix it and that's not how it works. It takes years and decades.
To improve and that's, that's what we've done. Okay. I have to read this. Okay. This quote, at this point in time, I put EDS in the category of being in the top three or four most severe pain problems. A lot of people, for example, think that cancer pain is the worst pain, but let me assure you that many EDS patients have pain far beyond any cancer patient I've ever seen.
And so it's one of the pain problems [01:12:00] that is severe, has been very troublesome. Many physicians are afraid of the disease and of the kind of pain that EDS patients. This is Dr. Forest Tennant. I don't know who that is. I think, you know, the intent is to explain how much pain people with EDS can experience.
And I think it is important for people to understand that because it can be like an invisible pain. Um, and at the same time I reached it like that. And I'm like, that is the opposite of empowering, hopeful, inspiring. Like I read that and if I didn't know better, and I didn't, when I was first diagnosed, I would just feel depressed and hopeless and anxious.
And like, that was just, I was just destined to just be in pain, the rest of my life, not understanding that there is so much that is still in your control and so much room to.
[01:12:51] Andrew Dettelbach: Well, I, you know, like I said to you, it's just he's he could be comparing like the worst cases of EDS to the average cases of [01:13:00] cancer.
Like what about the worst cases of cancer? Like compare those two things. Also pain is subjective. Pain is entirely up to your brain and how you're perceiving it, um, your nervous system and how you train your nervous system to experience that pain, um, your, your mind and how you are literally perceiving what's happening with that pain.
Like whether you're picturing your joint being deteriorated, or you have some arthritis in the area, um, you have a spur or a tear, literally what you're picturing the pain to be plays a role in how you experience it. So pain is highly subjective to the individual, and it's just foolish to say that anyone's pain is worse or better than someone else.
Your pain is your pain. You're experiencing it the way you're experiencing it. And that's bullshit.
[01:13:51] Katie Goss: I just, I don't like it stated, so matter of fact with no, no, nothing actionable, nothing supportive, [01:14:00] nothing is just so negative. Like I see so much of that. That's a
[01:14:03] Andrew Dettelbach: lot of what this community I see does. And I think, again, as I said, a moment ago, it's your pain and like you are experiencing your pain and we, aren't going to take that away from you.
We are going to teach you how to shift your mindset and look at it differently. And as a result, that pain will decrease. That's that?
[01:14:29] Katie Goss: All right. Well, uh,
[01:14:32] Andrew Dettelbach: I think we're done. We're not professional podcasts yet. So when it comes to the end of it, we're like. Yes. Normally we finished videos for Instagram. They have to be like very short.
There was no ending. And then we just move on. We make the next video.
[01:14:47] Katie Goss: So in summary, thank you for joining us.
[01:14:51] Andrew Dettelbach: You can find us on, uh, spread Whealth.com. We can find us on spread Whealth.com. Katie actually just got our Instagram handle [01:15:00] Whealth. That is w health. Uh, it was spread Whealth. The company name is Whealth.
It isn't spread Whealth, but that's all we could get everywhere. So she just got that Instagram literally went and took that handle away from someone and gave it to us, which is cool. Um, I know that our other company had to pay 10 or $15,000 for the Instagram handle,
[01:15:22] Katie Goss: which also took me.
[01:15:23] Andrew Dettelbach: You did that as well.
And that took you about a year to do. That was from a guy in Australia. I remember that. And, uh, so thank you, Katie. You can also find us on our podcast, which you're listening to and tick tock that is Whealth underscore. If you want to see really no different posts, but just see a different audience responding to them.
That is a fun, very different culture. There. We have a few programs. We have our limitless program, which is for. Paint and recovery and improving your overall [01:16:00] awareness of your body movement. We have the strength and conditioning program, which is exactly what it says it is. That is a three to six month long training course, day daily workouts.
For three to six months, you're going to get strong and improve your conditioning. Then we are coming out with our hypermobility program, which is similar to limitless, but it actually starts at a much more ground level and works up much more slowly over a longer period of time. And that one also has a tremendous amount of information specific to, uh, Ehlers-Danlos, other hypermobility syndromes and, um, stuff that, I mean, you spend a lot of time writing that stuff and we need to still make some of those videos actually.
That's what those are. We also have our nutrition program, which you and Shiloh put together.
[01:16:54] Katie Goss: Nutrition comes with limitless and the initial comes with the hypermobility program with some [01:17:00] specific information for hypermobile individuals. Our programs also come with a private community, not strength and conditioning does not limitless and hypermobility come with a private community where we do live coaching calls.
We do Q and a sessions with us. You get exclusive access to us live and, uh, we just help people out along their journey, their yep. And, uh,
[01:17:25] Andrew Dettelbach: we'll be providing support to the hypermobility community at, you know, at the beginning, at least until we're not able to do it, uh, anymore, just so that we can give you all a perspective of.
What your mindset should look like and, uh, cultivate a culture that is positive and uplifting and supportive. You're still able to share the shit, the dark shit in your life and the things that suck. We don't want to negate that you don't just mosey over the things that are bad, but we want to create actionable items from them.[01:18:00]
You know, if you're saying you can barely walk today. Well, what's your actionable item. That's, that's fine. It sucks. But what else can you do, um, to make your life more positive?
[01:18:11] Katie Goss: Yeah. Working on mindset is not just being like extremely optimistic and you just pretend like the negative things don't exist.
That's not, that's just ignorance. Like you're just, you know, a little bit delusional, delusional or ignorant, but it's, you have to. Acknowledge the negative things and embrace the negative things. And then also what is the next step and what is in your control and what can you do from there? So,
[01:18:37] Andrew Dettelbach: well, we listed our stuff, then we talked about programs and now we say goodbye.
Hey everybody, thank you for listening. Um, I appreciate you taking, what is this an hour and a half out of your time and sharing with us this whenever you're listening to it. Thank you very much. Goodbye. Goodbye.
